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Ask Shifra

Something Different... Answering questions and making curious observations (online) since 2005.

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Monday, November 20, 2006

Hot Chanie Under Fire

I was all set to type up my analysis for this article when I decided to procrastinate a moment longer by visiting Treppenwitz's blog, when what should I see but... He's SCOOPED me!

Oh well, I suppose I'll have at it anyway but that sort of took the wind out of my sails...

It's too long to post in it's entirety so I'll just give you the highlights. As usual the text from the article is in BOLD while my snarky comments are in stylin' italics.

Married yeshiva students warn against wives' short skirts, tight sweaters

The heavyweights of the haredi Lithuanian yeshiva world gathered Saturday night in Jerusalem to warn an audience of thousands of male, married yeshiva students that haredi women's dresses are too short, their wigs are too long, and their sweaters, shirts and blouses are too tight.

Did someone say "Hot Chanie?"
I imagine all the men in that meeting mashing their faces against the window panes "Where? Where?"

"Each and every father and husband has an obligation to vigilantly ensure that his wife's and daughters' dress is in accordance with the laws of modesty," read a declaration that was distributed after the meeting.

Vigilantly insure? That sure sounds like another religion I can think of... Maybe they can consult with the Taliban leadership, I think they've got the whole "viligilant insurance of women's modesty" thing nailed down.

.. Single men and women were not invited to attend.

Don't let the women know what's will be expected of them... it will be all the more exciting when they "vigilantly" lay down the law.

Organizers said afterwards that concrete steps to harness haredi buying power would block the "wanton influences" of foreign clothing styles, which are seen as a danger to the haredi community's traditional lifestyle.

Folks, I hate to be the one to tell you, but don't you realize that EVERYTHING is a danger to your lifestyle? I hear they are looking for people to colonize the moon why don't you try setting up a yeshiva there, it's sure to be free of distractions (well, of the Hot Chanie variety anyway a lack of Oxygen might be considered a distraction I supppose.)

"One of the ideas is to provide 'modesty certificates' to those clothing stores that meet our demands," said one of the activists who helped organize the conference in Jerusalem. "Stores without the certificates would be boycotted."

Will this be the kind of boycott that involves torches and pitchforks? That's my favorite kind!

A principal of a haredi high school for girls in Jerusalem who is active in the modesty campaign said that "modesty certificates" are impractical.
"Unlike kosher food, which is governed by clear-cut criteria, modest clothing depends on how it is worn and who wears it," said the principal. "There is an interaction between the body and the piece of clothing."

Might this principal be a woman? That is the only intelligent quote I've read this ENTIRE article. OF COURSE there is a realtionship between fit and body type... this is something that can't be legislated by a tape measure at the shop. A proposal earlier in the article required women to have blouses extending 10cm past the waist of their skirts to avoid their midriff (I love that word) showing when they raised their arms. For animated person like myself that wouldn't quite do it although I'd assume that Charedi women are more subdued.

"But Saturday night's conference sent a clear message to store owners that we are willing to boycott if need be until more modest merchandise is sold."

"Hey, Chaim? Yossi and the guys are getting together for a boycott Saturday night... do you have any gasoline?"

Not since the concerted effort two years ago to outlaw cellular phones among yeshiva students have so many important haredi rabbis and yeshiva heads gathered to provide spiritual guidance for their flock.
The anti-cellular phone campaign forced all the major cellular phone operators to provide the haredi community with special kosher phones that blocked access to Internet and erotic phone calls.

OK so from now on the gedoim will only get together to interfere with your personal life/habits instead of joining together over global issues. Excellent. What's next?

Hat tip to mdmom.


At 10:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's funny - I was going to comment on the Trep post that he should have referenced "Hot Channies" - then I checked here and saw you already made the connection.

I won't repeat all my verbiage from your previous post on the true meaning of tznius, and how useless and misdirected this type of approach is. I have said enough already. But I do want to add, that it makes me sad that with so many more critical and pressing communal issues, this seems to be the only type of issue that motivates a gathering and proclamation of this scope. Tragic, really.

At 10:51 AM, Blogger nikki said...

and the thing is, we were in a hotel in j'lem this past shabbat, with a visiting-from-america male relative and there was a "hot chanie" at our hotel as well. we even referred to her amongst ourselves as such.

and oh. my. g-d. did she turn heads. and made sure to sashay thru the dining room nice and slow (or maybe it was just because of the tightness of her skirt and the height of her heels that curbed her speed). while her skirts may be have been long, and her hair covered up she was most certainly not within the spirit of the law. her husband was quite unremarkable (hot chanie and the szlub, my relative called them). i'm sure we can psychoanalyze that to death.

my relative caught her eye shabbat morning at the kotel plaza where she breathlessly wished him an american "good shobbos" (think jessica rabbit's, "i'm just drawn that way")and he told me he nearly fell over. so while the group in jerusalem motzei shabbat may be going about this all wrong, as per very funny snarky comments, and there are more serious issues such as the agunot crisis, it's becoming apparent that there is a tzniut issue amongst some of us.

on the other hand, as one who is increasingly frustrated by the lack of clothing choices here in israel, one can either look like a hot chanie or a potato sack. that's what's out there. so what's a girl to do?

At 11:20 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hot potato sack?

At 12:32 PM, Blogger OrthoMonkey said...

The problem with tzinuit is just a symptom of a larger problem within Orthodoxy. Since there is such a focus on the rules of observance people end up losing track of the concepts behind the rules. In effect they use the formal definition of the rules as a bench mark for behaviour. Tzinut can never be summarized as a list of "laws" because unless we institute Burkas it will always be possible for someone to make themselves look attractive and eye catching while still following all the rules.

For issues such as this (and derech eretz and many others) the only way to teach it is to focus on the concepts behind the practice and teach people the importance of them. Anything else is doomed to failure.

Please note that I am not saying that rules and observance of them is pointless as without the Halacha there is no Judaism. I am just saying that there are issues which simple yes/no Halacha is not sufficient for.

At 1:07 PM, Blogger and so it shall be... said...

all this does is give these men an excuse to look at women...all in the name of vigilantly enforcing tznius.

Idiots! This is Daas Torah?

Count Me Out

At 2:35 PM, Blogger littlejerseygirl said...

First of all, I do not have a special kosher cell phone and I have never gotten and erotic call. Should I be insulted?

I can not understand why this was not a meeting for women - married or not. Just get them together in a room and explain that some of you look like sluts. Please stop.
Do they think we can't grasp this?

I can not imagine my father - especially since I'm married (but even before) ever commenting on my clothes. My mother, maybe.

There are so many problems in the Jewish world today. Kids at risk, financial tuition problems, compete hatered between different sects of Judaism. I'm so glad that the Rabbaim chose this as the pressing topic that needed to be addressed. *rolling eyes*.

Maybe they should organize a PETA-like group and pour paint over all the Hot Chanies. I like that better than the certificate idea.

I hope you all come visit my new shop "Burke's R Us". 5% discount to all those who mention shifra's blog.

At 3:46 PM, Blogger nikki said...

it's already taken care of -- they're being sprayed with bleach.

At 4:22 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Heh. Both Orthomom and I also made the immediate Hot Chanie connection...

At 4:29 PM, Blogger PsychoToddler said...

Damn you, Shifra, I was actually getting some work done today!!

Although I've chimed in before about the "misguided" approach Hot Chanie has to clothing choices, I'll echo those who also hear some uncomfortable parallels to what's being said by our good friends in the Islamic world. In particular that bozo in Australia who seems to think women get raped because they don't keep their faces covered up.

It saddens me that our "gedolim" seem to want to have more and more in common with those monsters. They should focus more on important issues that affect us all, like banning blogs.

At 7:11 PM, Blogger Ayelet said...

I think OrthoMonkey hit the nail on the head. It definitely is an issue that needs to be addressed. This is just not the way to address it.

littlejerseygirl: What makes you think that Hot Chanies would actually come to hear a mussar schmooze directed at them?

One more thing, it certainly is the job of a husband to point out how lack of tznius affects men and the implications of that for both unmarried and married men. It is a discussion that should be held in private. Of course, that means that the hubbie has to be on board. Two things the husbands should beware of: 1. Dictating what wife can/can't wear. "Don't wear this and only wear that" is doomed to failure. The emphasis should strictly be focused on how certain things can create problematic situations. "I wonder if women are aware of how men are affected when they wear....". Note how "you" does not even play a role in the conversation. 2. Complimenting one's wife's appearance most when she is dressed inappropriately is reinforcement in the wrong direction. We call that talking out of both sides of your mouth. The point is to make your wife feel that she looks beautiful especially when she is dressed tastefully and appropriately. Dressing appropriately does not preclude looking good. (Rebbetzin Tehila Jager is such a wonderful example of this. She spoke beautifully once on the topic of tznius for our yeshiva's sisterhood. I wish I remembered some of the points that made such an impact on me then :(.)

I think it's unfortunate that such an important topic is being addressed in that "fundamentalist" way that seems to characterize the approach of some people in leadership positions today. That approach seems guaranteed to alienate the people who most need guidance to foster an inner sense of self-worth and modesty so that they begin to appreciate themselves waht tznius is all about.

At 7:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

*Sigh* I guess I'm a little disappointed in you, Shifra. In general I agree with your outlook on things, but this time is an exception. While I agree that this lifestyle is not the lifestyle that most of us can live by, it is good for some people. Notice... This speech was given in Jerusalem, not Teaneck. Some people want to live their lives with a higher level of kedusha. Who are we to judge? Just because we can't live at that level, does not mean that we should mock their attempts at creating an environment of tznius and kedusha.

At 8:01 PM, Blogger Mrs. Balabusta said...

From Milwaukee, where we have no Kosher Dress Shoppes I have to tell you that if you can dress tzinius here, you can do it anywhere.

Also, it's a state of mind, not clothing. When I was a kid and the first "real looking" sheitels came out I remember the outrage. That was when "You can't even tell it's a wig" was not a compliment.

It's also where you where it. You don't where the same thing bowling as you do to a wedding. (especially the shoes)

Like the blog Shifra

At 9:38 PM, Blogger Shifra said...

"It's also where you where it. You don't where the same thing bowling as you do to a wedding. (especially the shoes)"

LOL! I like you too Mrs. B!

Ah funny comments - so easy to respond to! Now, on the more serious ones.

To those who feel I've let you down by mocking this process, I think you need to understand where I'm coming from.
While modesty and steering clear of temptation are efforts that I support I'm disapointed that one of the few times the gedoli yisroel actually band together it is for something so...external.
Clearly it's an issue worth addressing - Heck! I addressed it myself! But #1 it is impossible to assign weight and measures to this sort of a problem and #2 asking MEN to ENFORCE these regulations upon women seems to be absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
Those two items are that disturb me.

In light of the recent (and may I add unreproached)violence recently wrought by the charedi community in Jerusalem recently I think that the gedolim had best choose their word very wisely before asking husbands to "enforce" behaviour upon their wives.

Stories like the one mdmom told are just unbelievable, and Ayelet you are right, just as it is the job of a husband (or good friend for that matter) to tell you when you have spinach in your teeth or when your slip is showing he should certainly let you know if he feels you look just a little to hot for general consumption. HOWEVER, the woman is an adult and as with all other matters she has a mind of her own. This can be a subject of discussion but ultimately if a woman wants to dress a certain way it is her right to do so, and her husband will need to decide if he can live with that or not.

At 10:43 PM, Blogger Eliyahu said...

still waiting for the bare midriff photos! Shifra?

please send these people to the mall on black Friday! then they'll understand how modest the hot Channies really are.

At 11:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry Shifra but your "snarky" comments did not just address those two points. Comments such as
Folks, I hate to be the one to tell you, but don't you realize that EVERYTHING is a danger to your lifestyle? I hear they are looking for people to colonize the moon why don't you try setting up a yeshiva there, it's sure to be free of distractions
are mocking the yeshivish world.
How bout:
OK so from now on the gedoim will only get together to interfere with your personal life/habits instead of joining together over global issues. Excellent. What's next?
Do you think gedolim have nothing better to do then interfere with your personal life? Obviously this is something that they think is a problem. I agree with you that making measurement requirements may not be the best idea but where do you suggest they start? You can't say it's subjective... Some people don't have judgment that is as good as yours. And it can't be left the way it is because as you said, the whole hot chanie situation has gotten out of hand.
But there is another issue that bothers me. The fact that you are sticking articles like this on your blog with snarky comments is asking for other people (without naming any names) to say things that show an utter lack of respect for our leaders. Let's say for arguments sake that YOU know where to draw the line. Not everyone does and it turns into a gedolim roasting session. What are they talking about? How could they say something like that? Why don't they worry about things that are important instead of tznius? Fech! What do the gedolim know! Hosting a topic like this is asking for comments like that. And why would you want to start that?

At 11:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interestingly enough, in SOME homes, women actually listen to what their husbands say and if (as Ayelet mentioned) their husbands subtlely (or not so subtlely) indicate that the dress they are wearing is not appropriate they might, just maybe, change before leaving the house.

Stranger things have happened...

At 12:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

At the risk of inundating this blog with my comments, look what I found:

Their tagline is:
Welcome to modestworld.com.
The first Rabbinical approved clothing store on the web!
...Where modesty is fashion!

Er... i'm assuming they mean Rabbinically...

At 9:01 AM, Blogger eem said...

I think many of the HC's would listen, It seems to me that alot of the frum women who dress the way they do are doing it because that's the way their husbands like it. If they got another message,it might be differen. And I agree that while this is a very important issue-why is it only this one that prompts a "meeting to address the pressing problems in frum society"?

At 10:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's amazing to me how so many of you believe that these gedolim are only focusing on this issue. I have had the ability to spend time around many gedolim. Do you realize that from early in the morning until late at night every day they are besieged by thousand s of people for advice, brochos, or instruction. This is merely one meeting that they felt was necessary. But to insinuate that this took up so much of their time and they neglect other issues is crazy. Do you have any idea how many aggunos they have helped out? How many marriages they have saved? I'll bet you don't! They just dont publicise these things. They don't feel the need to publicise everything they do so that bloggers feel better about them. The general view of gedolim that many bloggers have, even comparing them to the taliban, is disgusting. Do you really think that gedolim sit around all day thinking of ways to make life harder for you? I recommend spending one day walking in their footsteps, how many times a day would you be able to hear the heartwrenching stories of suffering that they have been hearing every day for decades. Yet they turn no one away and help each person as much as possible, i have seen it first hand. So maybe think twice before being so critical of gedolim.

At 10:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that Eem made a very valid point... This is EXACTLY the reason that this meeting was directed at the "yeshiva students" and not their wives. I'm glad some voices of reason finally made it to the comments section.

At 12:42 PM, Blogger eem said...

Anon 10:11, I'm not disagreeing that the gedolim are really great people, and I don't think people are trying to say that they sit around all day trying to think of ways to make our lives harder. But honestly-when we have abuse going on in Jewish schools, violence (and yes, even though it is the minority, it is a big issue) during protests, aguna crises, girls with no schools to go to, poverty, addiction in teenagers and adults, etc..why are these things not publicly addressed also? What are the criteria to make an issue worthy of such a meeting? And I would not, G-d forbid, compare tremendous talmidei chachamim with Taliban, and I think the ones who do are missing the point of tznius. But can we realize that the "cover yourselves up or you will burn in hell" approach to motivation in this area is not working for our generation?

At 1:12 PM, Blogger littlejerseygirl said...

Maybe I'm wrong (it happens) but for a lot of these women, I just don't think they will change their ways because their DH's ask. I don't think they are oblivious to how sexy they look. They're not morons. They WANT to look like that.
They want that attention from other people. It makes them feel good.
I just havn't seen the majority of people lisnening to Takanos lately anyways:
a)internet (um, we're all here)
b) cell phone (e/o has one - and not a "kosher one")
c) don't make weddings that are too fancy (I've very rarely seen people who "can" monetarily show restraint when making a simcha.)
I honestly don't think we will be seeing a noticable difference in the way people dress until it becomes fashionable to wear a potato sack.

At 1:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey if me and my buddies ran naked in the street would all the 'rabbi's are talibanics' not look at us? Wouldn't you say it's OK, after all who are you to interfer with my life?
Overboard? I dont think so after all 'hot chanie' thinks she is tzniusdik.
What that you say she she dresses like a slut?
Why you really think she wants to sleep around?
How dare you even suggest that, Hot chanie, in her own humble,lack of self respect, opinion feels she is dressed within the bounds of tznius.
As are you of course, so your opinion has greater value than hers?
Sure, just like my excrement doesn't stink (really it doesn't!)

You don't watch me and my buddies streak down rechov meah shearim and I won't stare at 'hot chanie/sara/rifka/rochel/shifra's a5$ in the tight skirt.

At 2:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all, the argument of what topic is more important is less relevant than the question of what topics will benefit from being addressed in this manner.

You suggested that there are other very important problems that need to be addressed. Many of them may not benefit from this type of address. And while agunos are an important problem, how many agunos do you know and how many people do you know that dress immodestly? I also did not see anyone saying "cover yourself or burn in hell".

I think this is a symptomatic of a misunderstanding which I mentioned before. This address was given to married yeshiva bochurim in ISRAEL. The cell phone takana that you keep mentioning was made in Jerusalem. They sell cell phones with a heksher there. In America, they don't sell those cell phones. There has been no similar takana here. That's why you have not seen people using them here.

In any event, there ARE conferences and meetings about many of these topics. Unfortunately, conferences about web addiction or kids getting into trouble on the web, (of which there are plenty) don't make blogger headlines. It is the classic news bias. Bad news sells. Good news doesn't. Blog posts about things that Gedolim did that the JBlogsphere finds ridiculous will make it up here. All the other good things that are happening never will.

At 3:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a larger problem at hand which Shifra rightfully points out (as I have on my Blog as well) the charedim are becoming just as extreme as the Taliban. I pointed out to my wife a few years ago at a wedding that the headbands on falls are getting increasingly lower on the forehead to the point where soon these girls are going to be wearing Burkas. Tirades against blogging (censorship), mandates on Tznius, craziness in shiduchim and kashrus- how far is this going to go? Is the charedi leadership really that scared of loosing their authority that they are now imposing a tznius police? Just when you thought that it could not get any crazier something like this happens. I am frightened to think of what is next. Extremism from any point of view is dangerous, it was the crazy religious fanatics that brought down the world trade center, and if you think that our community is so far off from using violence to impose our views all you have to do is look back 2 weeks to the shameful and embarrassing VIOLENT protests in the streets of Yerushalayim- with calls from community leaders (late in the game and not forceful enough) to stop being ignored and cars being burned in the streets very similar to the Muslim protests that took place in Paris last year. We are in big trouble.

At 4:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK Shifra. You rock. Hands down. Full Stop.


Thanks ;-)

At 5:17 PM, Blogger and so it shall be... said...

The Rambam, hundreds of years ago, lauded the middle road for a reason: because the left of the road is off the derech and the right of the road is off their rocker!

The events that are happening in EY and the US with our chareidi brethren is not positive. It is the self-destruction of yiddishkeit. It's going to reach the point of no return and there will be a MAJOR rift in frumkeit and it will not end well.

Be afraid. Be very afraid!

At 11:53 PM, Blogger Eliyahu said...

good point, SW! only this morning i was browsing Haaretz and read (in part):
Converts will no longer be recognized as Jews under the Law of Return, according to a bill formulated by the Chief Rabbinate and presented to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert a few days ago. The revolutionary bill is now awaiting a decision by the prime minister whether to make it a government-sponsored bill.

The bill was initiated by Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar in an effort to block the possibility that the High Court of Justice could recognize Reform conversions carried out in Israel. IRAC's Rabbi Gilad Kariv said yesterday, "It turns out that Rabbi Amar's hatred for non-Orthodox streams is so great that it leads him to harm the basic principle that there is no difference between a convert and an individual who is born Jewish."

not a new OY, but OY anyway!

At 2:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Corrected Link here.

At 2:56 PM, Blogger David Fryman said...

It's getting harder and harder to take the so-called gedolim seriously. Oy.

At 6:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know where you guys live. But I know lots of jews who spend their life up to 18 hours a day for the klal.
Soneh harabanim is one of items listed in Rashi as a sign one is going downhill.
I tried explaining this seemingly tougher stance taken by rabbanim.
Take a look at the world in comparison with 30 years ago.
The world mostly due to the media has taken a moral nose dive, and as such the rabbanim feel that stay the middle course we need to be stricter on certain things.
Sorta like a tug-of-war, one side pulls the others gotta pull back, or they'll fall into the mud.

At 11:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why wasnt this gathering covered in the Jewish papers in the USA? Saw no mention of it in the Jewish Press, Hamodia, Yated or anywhere. Why keep it a secret? I heard some "BURNING BARUCHS" were out there demonstrating!!!!!

At 1:29 PM, Blogger and so it shall be... said...

"The world mostly due to the media has taken a moral nose dive, and as such the rabbanim feel that stay the middle course we need to be stricter on certain things."

B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....should I say that again?

B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The media was perceived as such in the 70s, 60s AND 50s. The problem is that "gedolim" today think they're smarter than everyone. When in reality, they're nothing but a bunch of coddled rock stars who have sycophantic blowhards kissing their asses all day long telling them how brilliant and wonderful they are.

So they believe their own press, wave their hands and shout at their insipid yarchei kallahs and moetzes meetings, bask in their own glory, and then utter the most shortsighted idiocy social policies to combat the big bad media machine.

Well, guess what. Every single crisis we suffer today is the result of some rabbinical claptrap instituted since the death of R' Moshe and R' Yaakov.

We don't need to be stricter. We need to be smarter. Sadly, with the egomaniacs in charge today, we're nowhere near where we need to be.

At 7:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ooh, my. That's a beauty of an article. Thanks!

At 4:39 AM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Still Wonderin: Wow...looks like that comment of yours should be a full posting on DovBear's ;-)

At 11:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The problem is that "gedolim" today think they're smarter than everyone."
Not all (sigh)
Please don't generalize like that.
Like in every other situation the loud boors are the ones who get heard.
I do agree the gedolim today are not the same that I grew up with.
Makes me pity my kids.

I still think there is a difference between the 'Brady Bunch' circa 1976
and 'Yo Yo Hot Boys' circa 2010 are the same modest qualities.
The media is different and todays Tv is NOT the same as when.....well when it was funny.
You can watch a 2 hour Abbott and costello, laugh the whole time without a single obsenity. Todays Tv you can't watch 5 minutes without it!

At 1:05 PM, Blogger and so it shall be... said...

"The media is different and todays Tv is NOT the same as when.....well when it was funny.
You can watch a 2 hour Abbott and costello, laugh the whole time without a single obsenity. Todays Tv you can't watch 5 minutes without it!"

yingerman, of course this is true. No one doubts this. But the "gedolim" have been crying wolf (crying media)for 40 years. Blaming the media for problems they've had 40 years to solve is blatant malpractice, not a wise preventative measure.

At 7:25 PM, Blogger have popcorn will lurk said...



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There is one thing you haven't mentioned; self esteem. If women would have healthier self esteem they would not feel the need to dress provacatively.

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